Sharing Our Grief, with Sam Hodges

In this episode, Greg Buffkin speaks with Sam Hodges, president of Church Initiative, about GriefShare, the number one grief support program in the world, and its significance in providing support for those experiencing grief, as well as the importance of community in the healing process. They discuss Sam's journey to Church Initiative, the signs of healing in grief, and some of the resources available for grieving individuals, including a new book titled 'Is My Grief Normal?'. We hope you will find this conversation encouraging, as well as informative about a proven resource for helping those who are experiencing their own grief journey.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to our final episode of 2025. I'm Greg Bufkin, your host. I don't know about you guys, but I can hardly believe that today is already December the 23rd, which means, of course, that Christmas is only two days away. For all of you overachievers who have already finished your Christmas shopping, congratulations. Now you can relax a little. That is, unless, of course, you have little children who are all hyped up on sugar cookies and candy. And for the rest of you, well, I'll just say that I trust you operate under pressure a whole lot better than I do. And guys, before I introduce my guest today, I do want to take an opportunity to thank Jesus for making this podcast ministry possible so that our listeners can continue to hear uplifting conversations, offering encouragement and hope on our grief journeys. I also want to thank each of you who listen to this podcast and for your prayers, support, and for sharing this podcast with others. We deeply appreciate each one of you, and we hope you'll continue to listen as we begin a new year with some new guests as well as a few returning ones. And so, from our family to yours, we pray that you experience a Christmas filled with God's richest blessings and peace. Now, today you guys are going to be hearing from Sam Hodges. Sam is the president of Church Initiative, which is a nonprofit ministry responsible for the number one grief support ministry worldwide, Grief Share, as well as a number of other church support and equipping programs. In this conversation, Sam and I discuss the value and importance of community on our grief journeys, as well as the often misunderstood benefits of lament. You don't want to miss hearing Sam as he shares the six signs of healing after loss. And finally, Sam will tell us about the latest resource from Grief Share, a book titled Is My Grief Normal? Which was recently published in September of 2025. And now here is my conversation with Sam. Well, Sam, welcome to our podcast today. It's great to have you with us. Greg, it's good to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to your audience. Yeah, absolutely. And since I already introduced you, Sam, why don't we just kind of go ahead and dive into the conversation that we had planned today? Because I want to be able to respect your time constraints because I know that you're busy. So what I thought we would do is before we start talking about Grief Share and your role with Church Initiative, which is a part of GriefShare, I just wanted to see if you would be interested in just sharing with our listeners what led you to become part of the Grief Share program or organization, I should say.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

Yeah, well, you know, I like to say God, I wanted to plant a church coming out of the seminary. But God planted me with church initiative.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

He always has his plans that seem to be better than ours.

SPEAKER_00: 4:26

He does. Yeah. And I, you know, I've seen that over and over again. And, you know, church initiative is the parent ministry over grief share. Oh, is it? Over divorce care. And so, yeah, I was in seminary in 1999, and I was getting ready to plant a church in Maryland with a friend of mine. He went to Dallas Theological Seminary. I went to Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina. And we were getting ready to do that, and the Lord really impressed upon me that I shouldn't do it, shouldn't go. And I was obedient to that, but at the same time, I did not know what I was going to do. Yeah. I had a couple of kids, married. And so that was just a real crisis of faith. But not too long after that, my pastor introduced me to the founder of Church Initiative. His name is Steve Grissom. Okay. And it turned out that Steve was looking to hire someone who had seminary training, but also someone who had training in media production, specifically television production. And that was me. Because in addition to having a Christian education degree with an emphasis, a master's of master's in divinity degree with an emphasis in Christian education, I also had an undergraduate degree in television production.

SPEAKER_01: 5:53

Oh, what a coincidence.

SPEAKER_00: 5:55

Yeah, an incredible coincidence. And so, you know, I started working at church initiative and I was assigned to work on different projects. The Ministry Church Initiative actually started as divorce care. Okay. And when they when church initiative started reaching more people and, you know, addressing different topics, it became church initiative. And one of those additional topics that they began to address was Grief Share. And they created the first edition in 1998. Okay. And after I was there for a while, I ended up working or being assigned to work on creating the second edition of Grief Share. But that's how I got connected with the organization. And again, something that I never would have dreamed or didn't plan on, but just thankful for God for connecting me with Steve.

SPEAKER_01: 6:46

Yeah. And it's you've been there now for what, 20 years plus?

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

20 years, yeah. There was funny, there was a break around 2002 or 2003. I left church initiative to work as a pastor at a church in Maryland, the same church that I was going to help plant. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. He got it started and he asked me to come. I said, okay. And Steve told me, the founder, he said, don't go, you're not a pastor. And uh I said, Well, you know, if it doesn't work out, can I come back? And so it it didn't work out. And in two years, I was back, and uh Steve took me back, and he jokingly refers to me as first and second Samuel, you know. And uh just being outfitting. Yeah, yeah. So, but no, I'm I'm really grateful for him and just being able to work here with these good people here, too.

SPEAKER_01: 7:38

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00: 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

Well, Sam, I wanted to ask you, I've I've talked to other pastors about this before, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this. So you're an ordained pastor, you've been through seminary, you graduated from, as you said earlier, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. So when you graduated, you know, your plans were to, you know, to plant a church. And I don't know what kind of experiences you've had along the way. Maybe it was, you know, during those those two years when you left and then came back. How well prepared or equipped would you say that you were when you graduated with your degree? And and when I say well equipped and prepared to help people who are grieving. Because some, you know, as a pastor, you know, one of the things that that people often look to their pastor for is for comfort and for counsel, for just help walking through a time of suffering. And so what how how well do you think you were prepared for that?

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

Well, I I probably thought I was more prepared than I really was, you know. You know, coming out of seminary, my tra the training of the my the emphasis of my training was Christian education. Yeah. And so, you know, I I know I had to take uh one or two Christian pastoral counseling classes. And, you know, they they trained you on how to, you know, help grieving people and how to mobilize a congregation to do that. Right. So I think in some respects, I would have been okay at helping grieving people in the congregation church. But looking back on what I've learned in this time that I've been with Church Initiative, and after talking with so many grieving people, putting together three different versions now of grief share, there's so much that I didn't know. Yeah. You know, there's so much I didn't, and that I didn't know I didn't I didn't know. But, you know, um at the same time, you know, I praise God because I'm so thankful to him because he really did prepare me for what he called me to. I mean, he was working on my resume, you know, before I even knew what I was going to be doing. Yeah. You know, so I, you know, I look back and I think about in eighth grade, even high school, I was pulled out and put in television production classes. And I went to a visual and performing arts high school. And even then, you can major, and my major was television production. So I took extra TV production classes after school. Again, I majored in that in college. When I was in seminary, I worked for a local NBC television station. So when I got out of seminary and God closed that door in terms of starting a church, he had prepared me in such a real way to do this kind of work. Because again, I had the training in Christian education. I understood how to put together curriculum, I understood the video piece. And here's there's a bit, and here there is this ministry just a couple of miles away from where I live that did video-based curriculum. And so I just give God all the praise for that. Now, when I started working there, I really that's, you know, I almost feel like coming to church initiative and working here, learning from Steve and talking to people who've been through grief, talking to people who've been through divorce. It's almost like getting a PhD in counseling or care ministry, you might say. Yeah, yeah. I remember talking to this woman one time. I was getting started on the grief program. She uh her husband passed away. And I said to her, I said, Well, tell me how you lost your husband. And she looked at me and she said, You lose your keys. You don't lose your husband. And I was, you know, I was flabbergassed. Yeah, I didn't know how to respond. I don't even know what I just yeah, okay. And I bet conversations like that and just really understanding how grief impacts people and being able to ask them questions and talk through with them just about their experiences, that really taught me more about grief than anything I learned at when I was in seminary. On-the-job training. Yeah, on the job training. And and Steve, you know, the founder of our ministry, the reason why he did video-based curriculum is because he was a journalist. Okay. He worked as a news director, as a reporter. So he loved telling stories. And that's what he did when he created divorce care. He told stories. And so coming to church initiative, I learned from him how to tell powerful stories to help people learn deep spiritual truths. And so, again, coming to church initiative, again, it's like going back to school and uh God ultimately prepared me for what he wanted me to do.

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

Yeah. And, you know, of course, we we know the one who did a lot of teaching primarily by stories, and his words are recorded in the New Testament. That's right. Jesus. That's right. Yeah. Right. And so if if he gave us a method for communicating with people and getting truths across to people by telling stories, then it seems like it would be important to us as well. So I'm glad that you guys are approaching it from that perspective. And I think that it's very important for people who are grieving to share their stories because we often feel unheard and unseen after we go through a significant loss, a child, a mate. And we we desperately want people to remember our loved ones because we fear that people will forget. So it's a way of keeping their memory alive and of honoring them as we share our stories. Sam, from your experience over the years, what do you guys find that grieving people really need the most from other people, particularly in that, you know, those first couple of years, because those are without a doubt the hardest.

SPEAKER_00: 14:14

Yeah. We see that people really need two things. One, they need community. And then they need God's word. A lot of times, because of how difficult grief is, it's really helpful to hear God's word, even from other people. Sure. Or to hear from other people who've received God's comfort and are willing then to share it, which is what God intends. But, you know, grief really pushes people towards isolation. And but healing happens, you know, when you surround yourself with other people who have received God's comfort. And they're the people who are in a lot of ways best suited to help because they understand what you've been through to some degree. Right. And they can also, again, share those unique things that God has shown them in their journey of grief. And, you know, God's word is really important too, because one of the things that it does, it doesn't just tell us, it doesn't necessarily just give us answers. It really invites us to share our pain with God. And I think one of the things that I've observed in talking with people who've gone through grief is that there's just such a sense of bewilderment after the loss of a loved one. And there are not there's not just one emotion that you're dealing with, it's multiple emotions that you're dealing with at the same time. And it's can it's confusing.

SPEAKER_01: 15:47

It is. Grief is messy. Yeah. And you often hear you often hear people who are grieving, particularly in the early season, the acute season of it, they feel like they've got brain fog. And we call it grief brain, sort of like COVID brain. Right. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:10

And that and what we found is really helpful is to encourage people to take a cue from the Psalms and other passages in scripture where people are encouraged is to cry out to God and let Him know what they're feeling, all the confusion. You know, I I like to say it like this: you know, God doesn't want to silence us, He wants to soothe us. Absolutely. One of the ways we experience that soothing is by letting him know what's on our hearts. Right. And that's why we encourage people to get into God's word, not just so they can hear what God has to say about their circumstances. That's important. But again, it invites us to share how we really feel with him. Right. And so in that two-way, in that two-way street where we're hearing what God has to say about his love for us and his compassion, his concern, and us sharing how we're feeling, change starts to happen. Healing starts to take place. And we like to say people heal when they share what they feel in light of what God has revealed. Absolutely. And so we see that happening. And so we really encourage people to be with other people and also be in God's word. But there's some other things that we really think that grieving people need. And these are things that really promote healing over the first few years after the death of a loved one. Right. Let's talk about those. Yeah, yeah. So one, it's just really important for people who've lost a loved one to deal with their emotions authentically. Right. There's a temptation a lot of times, as you well know, to numb your pain, to ignore it. And that's that's detrimental. And so what we want people to do is to really feel those emotions, understand what they're saying, and work through those. And that is really something that moves you toward healing. And this isn't something that, you know, happens quickly, it's something that happens over time. But again, these things that I'm about to list out here, these are things that we refer to as signs of healing. And so one is, you know, dealing with your emotions, understanding that your emotions, while they're important, ultimately, they don't have the last word. Absolutely. It's really important to hear from God and put everything again in that right perspective. Another thing is just adjusting. We really encourage people to really take steps just gradually to adjust. Grief brings so much change into a person's life. If you've lost a child, you know, birthdays aren't the same. Christmas is never the same. Maybe you had play dates with, you know, friends from church. That's not the same. Or maybe if you're homeschooling, right, and your child passes away, that changes everything. It does. So there's just this sense in which adjustments have to be made. And, you know, you're dealing not, you're realizing that you're not just dealing with the loss of the child, but there are these secondary losses. You know, going back to the example about play dates. Right. Not only have you lost your child, but you've lost friends who no longer want to spend time with you, or even if they do want to spend time with you, the opportunities aren't there because your child isn't there anymore. Right. Right. And so it's making adjustments to those kinds of things is really important. And just, you know, if you can see, okay, here by doing those things, understanding that you're making progress towards healing can really, really be helpful.

SPEAKER_01: 19:53

And this is important because sometimes people get stuck trying to figure out am I getting any better or am I going to get any better? So if there are some things like you're talking about that they can that they can have and understand, then it lets them know that, okay, I am making some progress. It's not as bad this today as it was last week. And uh, you know, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00: 20:25

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, the as I mentioned, you know, there have been four different editions of Grief Share since 1998. And each time we do another one, we learn more about what people need. And so that goes back into the curricula and into the curriculum and just makes it better. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 20:46

So let's talk about the The the remainder of those that you were talking about, I I interrupted, but I want our listeners to hear those those others because you said there were six signs.

SPEAKER_00: 20:57

Yes. Another one is just addressing what we call ultimate questions. You know, when you're wrestling with grief, you're asking deep questions about suffering. You know, you're asking questions about eternity, you're asking questions about God's plan, about evil. And one of the things that we encourage people to do is to really try and find answers to those questions. And grief share helps people to do that. And there are other ways to try to find answers to those questions. But what we really want to encourage people to see is that while you might not get all the answers that you're looking for, trying to find those answers and growing closer to God as you grapple with the way He responds, that actually produces healing. And there are other people who've gone before you in the journey of grief who have found answers and have come to terms with some of these questions. And just hearing how they've addressed some of those things, I can really be encouraging. And it's also a sign of healing as you're working through that. Another one is just continuing. And so this is similar to adjusting, but this is more kind of like what you talked about at the beginning of our conversation. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're moving forward in such a way that you're honoring your loved one that you've lost. And so this can be done by maybe establishing a scholarship fund or some kind of memorial fund for your in that honors your child. Sure. We interviewed someone and they started a mission in Africa to help other children, you know, in to honor their son. So there are all sorts of ways that you can do that. And it can even be small ways. You know, it can be something that you do at Thanksgiving, you know, just taking time, a moment to remember your lost child, or at the holidays, doing something that he always enjoyed doing. But it's just moving forward and at the same time remembering and honoring your loved one. That's really really good. And then another one, I I skipped over this one at the beginning, is just accepting the reality of the loss. Really, you know, this has happened. I'm not denying it. I'm not pretending that nothing's changed. I've I've fully acknowledged it. And uh, you know, with I was gonna say quickly, with AI, people are actually pretending that their deceased loved ones are still alive. And as technology advances, I think you're gonna see more and more people not accepting the reality of their loved ones' death, but trying to hold on to it. And while technology can help us grieve if we use it wisely, it's keeping us from accepting the reality of the loss, that's detrimental.

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

Yeah, because if you can't get past that one, then it's the the healing journey is going to be incredibly difficult. And sometimes people get stuck there, and and we refer to that as prolonged grief disorder. I mean, it's it's actually a an acknowledged medical disorder that people sometimes need to get counseling for. Sometimes they, you know, they need to get special help that sometimes through medication, even. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:15

Yeah. No, it it it that is a real thing. And yeah, so it's really important to accept the reality of the loss. The last one is one that's much further down the road, but this is just really sharing the comfort that you've received.

unknown: 24:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:29

God desires for his comfort to be shared. And uh so what we want to encourage people who've gone through grief share to do at some point just to begin sharing that with others. And that helps you heal, and it also helps others, and people really benefit from that in amazing ways.

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

Yeah, I can speak to that personally, Sam. That you know, Kathy and I, once we were in a once we had gone far enough down our grief journey and our healing journey, and we were able to start sharing with other people, it it really is amazing how when you're helping them, you're also helping yourself and you don't even realize it. Because every time you share your story, you're you're having to process what you have experienced, how you're feeling, what you're thinking. And so it's a double blessing for people that you're trying to help, but also for you personally, as we said. You know, Sam, this podcast is particularly focused on parents who have lost a child and on brothers and sisters who have lost a sibling. How as you're speaking to these folks that are listening today, what would you say to them in regards to how grief share can specifically help them? Because in the grief share groups, they you don't really differentiate between the loss of a mate, the loss of a child, and other losses as well. And sometimes I think parents are reluctant to go to a group where they think somebody's not going to really understand me because they didn't lose a child, they lost a husband or a wife. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:32

Yeah, well, I say first, you know, grief share is designed for anyone who's lost a loved one. Right. In our current edition, we've included interviews with over 22 people who've lost a child. Now, some are through miscarriage, some are lost a teenager, or some lost adult children. But those stories are woven throughout the 13 weeks. Right. And we do differentiate their the kind of losses people have experienced. You know, in the videos and the workbooks, we let people know, you know, if you're hearing a comment from this person, we also let you know what kind of loss that person experienced. And we think, you know, people who come to the group, no matter the loss that they've experienced, they're going to benefit from hearing other people talk about how God has comforted them and hearing other people just talk about what they've learned about grief. And so certainly you're you're definitely going to connect more with someone who has experienced a similar loss. But there's just still a lot of benefit that you can receive from hearing how other people have dealt with grief. And the other thing I would say is the people in those groups also need to hear from you because you have something to share. Sure. You have something to give to other people just to help them to understand and see God's grace in its in its in in the many ways that it can manifest itself. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:04

Yeah. And I have sat through the the grief share program, the 13-week program, and and yeah, there were there were a variety of losses. But the but the things that we've talked about today, the the ways that we see signs of healing such as that, that that applies to all forms of grief and all sources of grief. So that is important. And and you guys are the you're, let's face it, you're the number one grief support group in the world. So what you guys are doing must be right, or you wouldn't be the number one platform or program in the in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 28:54

Yeah, well, we're what we're doing is not unique. You know, God has been helping people deal with grief long before. Absolutely. Long. We're simply trying to take biblical principles and share them with people and with the hopes that those things will transform them and bring encouragement to them. And we've seen that happen. And we've seen a lot of wonderful relationships develop and flourish amongst group members. Uh they go on long after the groups end because they connect, because there's this commonality that they've lost someone. And, you know, if you go into it with the mindset that people aren't going to understand because they haven't experienced my type of loss, again, you're right on so many levels. But then you might just miss out though on some of the ways that they could help you, because there are so many other things that you do have in common. So I would just encourage you to focus on what you do have in common and what you can give. And I think that's how you'll get the most out of a grief share experience.

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with what you just said, Sam. And so if you're listening today and you're not familiar with Grief Share, I think most people have at least heard of it. You can go to their website and and check out all of those resources, and you're also able to, through that website, to get plugged into a group. And you guys don't just have physical groups that meet physically, but you also have virtual groups, as I understand it. Is that is that correct? We do.

SPEAKER_00: 30:34

We do. So we have groups that meet around the world, but we have groups that meet in person and online. So if you visit griefshare.org, you put in your zip code or your city state, we'll show you what groups are meeting near you. You can uh filter your search, so you can just search for online groups. So if you're looking for a group, we think you can find one, particularly if you're open to an online group. The other thing I want to say is we have when when you when you sign up for Grief Share, you sign up for a group, you also have access to online resources that we've created for our participants, which help you outside of the group experience. Yeah. And created some special videos to help people who have lost the child. And uh we have a video on loss of a teen, loss of a child, and then there's another video to help parents who are trying to help children who are grieving. That's important. So those three videos, I think each one of those videos is anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes long. And that supplemental material is available for the participant to go through on his or her own to learn or go even deeper into some of the things that we've learned about how to help people who have lost a child. And some leaders, you know, will you know, pull, you know, if they've got a handful of people in the group who've experienced that type of loss, they might pull those people together and go through that content, you know, in a s in a smaller group.

SPEAKER_01: 32:03

And that's some good stuff, Sam. And I appreciate you sharing that. You you guys also have a new book, as I understand it, and I believe that it's called Is My Grief Normal? Exactly. And it was it's being published this month, September of 2025, correct?

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

Yes, yes, yeah. We we just got some some copies here into the building, and so we'll be selling, we'll be getting those out later this month. But it really addresses 51 common questions that people have about grief. And so we think it's a really helpful book, a really helpful way to introduce people to grief share and grief share resources, but it's a real practical guide, again, to answer questions that most grieving people have about their loss and how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01: 32:52

Now, I love that. And I I really do love the title too, because most people who are going through particularly that early acute season of grief, they wonder if they will ever be normal again, if there is such a thing for them again. And they wonder if the way that they're grieving is normal, or is there something wrong with the way that I'm grieving? And and we do want people to understand there is no cookie-cutter way of doing it. That's right. It's there is no right or wrong way. There are certainly healthy and unhealthy ways to do it. But please don't please don't feel like if you're grieving differently than someone else that you know who's grieving, that there's something wrong with you. That's not the case. It sounds like this book might be a really great resource for you. The other aspect of all that we've talked about today that I think is so critical for for healing is community. I can't Sam and I both could not overstate that enough. Please don't isolate yourself and try to do it alone. There is, there is so much healing in community. Doesn't have to be a big group, it can be a small group, it could do it online if you want to start it that way. But please avail yourself to the opportunity to get in community with other people.

SPEAKER_00: 34:31

Yeah. I I, you know, one of the things about being in community with other people and talking with other people who've experienced loss, even though their losses are different, the thing that you also see is that it's always devastating. And when you can be in a group with someone else who is maybe two or three months ahead of you in their grief journey and see that they're still surviving, despite the fact that they had a devastating loss, that is incredibly encouraging and is an incredible source of hope. And sometimes that's all people have, you know, because they don't have the faith to get in the scriptures. They don't have the energy to go to church. Just being around other people who are making it can be an encouragement. And so, you know, again, community is super important. And uh, I just really encourage people to take advantage of it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:29

Yeah, absolutely. And and we always encourage that on our podcast. Very good. Sam, if there are pastors who might be listening today who maybe want to take oper take advantage of the opportunities, the resources that you guys offer, should they get in touch with you, Sam, directly, or should they just go to the website? What what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_00: 35:56

The best thing to do is visit the same website, griefshare.org. Okay. And there you can, you'll see where you can click to learn more about starting a group, launching a group. And I think the thing I really want pastors to understand is that you know, when it comes to our relationship with churches, we don't see ourselves as a publishing ministry. We see ourselves as partners in ministry. Absolutely. We come alongside churches, and when you work with us, you don't just get tools, you get a team. And so we have coaches that will come alongside your church and help your church get started. We'll help you train people, we'll help you recruit people, we'll get you equipped, we'll help you promote, we'll draw people to your church to attend the event. We want your group to be a successor. We've invested significant resources in providing free coaching to any church that wants to offer grief share. And so I just invite pastors to learn about that, explore that. That coach is even there to walk with you as you're trying to figure out whether or not grief share would be a good fit for your church. So we want to take the responsibility off the pastor's plate as much as we can. And so if a pastor can find one person in the church who'll be willing to take this ministry on, we'll help that person build a sustainable ministry to that draws people to the church and helps introduce people to the comfort that's only found in Christ.

SPEAKER_01: 37:27

Man, that is some good stuff. I can't imagine why any pastor would not want to take advantage of that. So thank you so much for all that you guys do at Grief Share and Church Initiative, Sam. Thank you for taking the time to be a guest today on our podcast. I hope that I hope that the things that you've shared people will take advantage of.

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, I I really appreciate the opportunity again to talk to your audience. And I've never lost a child. And so there's so much I don't know. I do know that over the years we've been able to help a lot of grieving people, but that's only by the grace of God. And so uh all glory to him for any success that we've had in helping people. And we hope that we can help many more people, and we hope our resources can be a part of that. Amen. Thank you so much, Sam. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you. Yes, sir.