When “The Knock” Comes with Diane Grotberg, David’s Mom

A midnight knock can split your life in two. Diane Grotberg remembers the moment two sheriff’s deputies told her their 19-year-old son, David, was dead, and how the first thing she felt was that everything had changed forever. David was a Baylor University sophomore, a gifted musician and friend, and a young man whose faith and compassion had already shaped people far beyond his hometown in Minnesota.

We walk through the hard truth of the hit-and-run that killed him and the long, grinding wait for justice, including the reality of delay, denial, and a trial that didn’t arrive until years later. Diane also shares what grief looks like when you still have kids at home, schedules to keep, and a mind that feels like it’s turned to fog. If you’ve experienced child loss, traumatic grief, or you love someone who has, you’ll recognize the private sobbing behind public “strength,” and the exhaustion that comes when the shock wears off.

We also talk candidly about support and faith: what helped, what hurt, and why silence from church communities can feel like a second wound. Diane contrasts that with the people who showed up, including the Baylor community that honored David’s life, stayed connected, and made space for stories. You’ll hear simple, practical guidance for helping bereaved parents, plus grief resources like “Lament For A Son” and the search for hope that points beyond tragedy.

If this conversation matters to you, please share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more grieving families can find real support.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back. I'm your host, Greg Bufkin. And today, before I introduce my guest, I wanted to take a minute just to say thank you for listening and for sharing these conversations with others. We hope you'll find those conversations encouraging, uplifting, and to be sources of hope. If you think you might like to share your story on a future episode, send me an email with a brief description of your story as well as your preferred contact information, and you'll find my email address at the end of each episode description. Now, joining me today as a guest is Diane Grotberg. In October of 2016, Diane and her husband Clark lost their precious 19-year-old son David in

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:48

a hit and run accident while he was attending college at Baylor University in Texas. Not until eight long years later would the trial take place and the driver be found guilty and sentenced. We hope you'll listen as we talk about the impact of David's life and death on the lives of countless other people at Baylor University in his own community, as well as kids and youth living in orphanages in Guatemala. You'll also learn how Diane's faith in and relationship with Jesus Christ has carried and sustained her on this now 10-year-long journey. And now here's my conversation with Diane. Hey Diane, welcome to our podcast today. It is so good to have you with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Well, hey, listen, before we dive into your story, why don't you take a couple of minutes and just tell our listeners a little about you guys personally, where you live and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Okay. Well, my name is Diane Grapperg, and I'm my husband's name is Clark, and we live in Fergus Falls, Minnesota, which is northwestern Minnesota, kind of right in the middle of the state, but all the way to the west. And we have six children. David would have been our oldest. He would have been turning 29 next month. And our youngest is 18.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

We have your youngest is 18.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Our youngest is 18. A girl. We have four girls and two boys. Let's see, three of them are out of college. My oldest daughter, Mary, has two children, and she lives in Fergus Falls. She got her master's in flu performance and then moved back to Fergus Falls with her husband and children. My second daughter, Elizabeth, lives in Wisconsin with her husband and works there.

Diane’s Family And Life In Minnesota

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And then Thomas lives in Minneapolis with his wife, and he's an engineer. And then Alexandra, our youngest, is at Baylor University in Texas, and Sarah, our second youngest, is at the University of Mary in Bismarck, North Dakota.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Wow, you guys are spread out all over creation, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. And you have what, two grandchildren? Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah, two, yep, two grandsons. Just little.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

How old are they?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Benjamin is twenty months old and Oliver is two months old.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Wow. Congratulations on a brand new one. That's great. I I bet you enjoy that role, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, of course. I've never heard a grandparent say otherwise. I've heard some say that if they had known what having grandchildren was like, they would have skipped over having children and just had the grandchildren.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Exactly. It's just you get all the fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Exactly, all the fun without a lot of the responsibility, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I appreciate you sharing that. So what I'd like for you to do, we're obviously you mentioned your son David, and that's why you're here, is to share your story. Let's go back in time a ways and just let's talk about David growing up. Tell our listeners a little bit, a little bit about him, who he is. I don't know, maybe just a couple of your favorite memories with him.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, David is our oldest. He was born when I was just finishing up my second year of law school. So it was a huge, huge change for us. But David was this curious, active little boy, just absolutely loved being his parents. When he was in first grade, he was at a little private Christian school, and we decided we needed to bring him home. It wasn't something I really originally wanted to do, but just he was so curious and so active. We thought he would be better off at home. So I began homeschooling him in second grade and did it all the way through 12th grade.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

And

David’s Curiosity And Homeschool Years

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I mean, we had a lot of fun. It was a lot of work because he pushed so hard. His vocabulary was big, better than mine. You know, he's 10 years old using words I had to look up. But I just, it was humbling, but really a beautiful experience. I ended up homeschooling all my kids. I finished homeschooling this last summer. So just a great great adventure. And it it all started with his curiosity, but he was also a really deeply sensitive person, a very spiritual teenager. When he was 14, he went to Guatemala to work at the House of Hope orphanage just for a week. He went with his dad and the church we're attending at the time. And while he was there, his heart was really touched by the ministry and by those children. And so in that first week, he pressured Clark, his dad, if he could see if he could come that summer. And the leader at the time said, Well, we usually take them when they're 18, but we'll take David. So I know it was amazing, not surprising to us, but just amazing that Peter, the leader of House of Hope at the time in Guatemala, would recognize the spiritual leadership and the spiritual giftings that he had. So his 15th year summer, when he was 15, he spent five weeks in Guatemala. The next summer he spent three months. And when he was 17, it was another three months. And because he was homeschooled, we had a little flexibility with his schedule. So he would earn money, work for his dad in April and May, and then he would be able to afford the spend the summer in Guatemala. And then when he was 18, he wanted to go back. And I said, You really need to earn some money for college. Guatemala's not going anywhere. And so he begrudgingly spent the summer at home with us, the siblings, and earned money for college. And and I I don't know. It was just really special to know that he had a heart for these orphans and and for others. And the other thing that was really challenging and fun about David is he just pushed until he got his own way.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Who did he get that from? You or your husband?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

My husband, probably. He was a very sweet-spirited person. But I just remember times my kids did music at the high school in town, but it's 14 miles away. And he was a late driver because he wasn't home in summers. And and so he didn't have a driver's license. So he'd want to go to pet band because he just loved being with people. And I'd say, you know, it's so far, I'm so tired, I'm not taking you. You know, 15 minutes later, I'm in the car driving into Pet Band, and I'm thinking, How did I get here? And it was because he could really coax you to do anything. He was in robotics for two years. And after the two years, he and Clark decided they were going to start their own robotics team. And I said no because I knew I'd be running a robotics team and I didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

In the fall, there we were having a meeting for our robotics team that was run out of our house. He started the team, it ran for nine years. We ran it until his younger brother graduated from high school. And wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Nine years.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah. And we are a very, very successful team. I mean, he really set us up as a very competitive team. But in in robotics, we had to raise quite a bit of money to take some trips and just do some of the things we did. And I remember talking

Leadership Through Robotics And Service

SPEAKER_01 8:15

to one of the vice presidents over at Autotel Power, the local power company. And she said, David came in to do, he called her up and asked if he could do a demonstration. And she said, You can, but I have no money for you. And he said, That's fine. I still want to do a demonstration. He walked away with a check. And they became one of our larger sponsors for the rest of the time we ran robotics.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

That was just David.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

That's amazing. Okay, so while you were sharing earlier on, thinking, okay, you shared that you had started out in law school, and then you s decided somewhere along the way with David that you would you would do homeschooling. So I'm just curious, which did you find harder? Homeschooling or law school?

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Homeschooling is by far was hard.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I knew that's what you were gonna say. That's funny. Yeah, I think that's pretty predictable, but rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yes, very rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So I know this is gonna be this is gonna probably be a little bit sensitive for you, but I I would like for our listeners to know how your grief journey started, Diane. So we need to step back to that time in 2016 when David was a sophomore at Baylor University. And when you and I had spoken on the phone back a few weeks ago, you shared a lot about how how well known, how popular David was on campus to just be a sophomore and was not a local guy. You know, you guys live in Minnesota, and here he is down in Baylor University. But in his sophomore year, you guys got a knock on the door one night that represents that knock, that represents that phone call that every parent lives in dreaded fear of when they think about it. Why don't you just pick up there, tell our

Introducing The Loss And Fear

SPEAKER_00 10:20

listeners what happened, and I mean just what that was what that was like trying to move forward from that knock on the door.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Okay, well, it it was about midnight, and my daughter Mary, she was 16, and her bedroom kind of looks out on that door. She can see she looked out her bedroom, she could see part of our driveway. And she came into our room and said, Dad, someone's at the door, which is very strange. We live out in the country, we live on 10 out just about 10 acres, and we don't really have neighbors. So that was very strange. So Clark went downstairs and then they asked him where I was. So he came upstairs and said, They're looking for you. And I'm thinking, I haven't, you know, I I'm wondering what I've done. You know, I haven't done anything.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yes. So I, you know, I'm very like relaxed and cheerful and curious. So I get to the door, and there are these two sheriffs standing there, and

The Midnight Knock And God’s Presence

SPEAKER_01 11:20

there's no softening this. You know, when you tell parents their son has died, there's nothing really nice you can say. So they didn't. They just said, Your son David Gropper is deceased.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

That's how they said it.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yes. And they stood there, they were they were very, very kind. They just stood there and I don't remember. Clark says I screamed, I don't remember that part. I remember thinking, My life will never be the same instantly. And then I remember feeling like everything kind of went dark, and it was dark outside, it was dark on our entryway, but I felt like I was falling and thinking, you know, I'm not I this is my life, now I'm gonna fall. And God so clearly said to me, I'm right here. I can catch you if you want me to, but you have to ask. And I thought, okay, I'm asking. I'm not doing this alone, I'm asking. And then it was like God kind of came into the our little entryway. And then I remember thinking, it was this very strange thing as if you feel in one sense that your life is kind of over, but in another sense, the creative of the universe has just moved in. So it can't be over. So we kind of were moving into our house with the sheriffs, and I remember saying, I can't do this. And then God spoke to me and said, You've been raised your whole life to do this. So now go do this. And I realized that, yes, I have been. My grandfather's a pastor, my dad's a pastor. I've been raised in the church, I went to Bible school. I know what's true and what's not true, and I'm gonna have to live it out right now. So we moved into our living room. Our our pastor came over, some friends came over. My husband's brother and his wife, they they were about three hours away, they started on the road, and it was the strangest, strangest feeling. We're sitting in the living room, we're knowing like one of the your favorite people in the world, the person that you raised is gone. But in one sense, but God is sitting there right with you and grieving with you and telling you he's not gonna leave.

unknown 13:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And so I remember saying, it's very, I said, the the creator of the universe is weeping with us. How can I be angry when the creator of the universe has moved into my house and sits with us? And then Clark said, I have never felt so empty and so full at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, it's it's a phenomenon that you absolutely cannot even begin to try to explain to anybody else who hasn't lived it. But that's that's a good description.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And I felt like the truth of my faith. I guess I wasn't feeling so much as I was being being tested as I was being told it's time to live this like seriously now. I mean, we've been living this all these years, but now is the time. Do you believe it or don't you believe it? And I realized, you know, I believed it. And you know, I want to make really clear, other people have different experiences. God met me where I was. You know, he spoke to me as who I was. Not everyone's gonna share my experience because not everyone has had my upbringing. You know, David was very, very alive in that room, just in the sense that we brought our experience of him with us, and we're saying he was so strong in his faith. We can't deny the same faith or or reject the same faith that we raised him to believe that he embraced. So we're gonna make him proud.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Well, what a testimony.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

And you see, then there's so many, you know, of course, there's so many things that happen right away.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Diane, what I was going to to maybe suggest is not that it's that important, but David's death was so needless. I mean, it was sh the the nature of it was so cold and so heinous. Um and then it was there was a lot of cover-up involved. And you know, you don't don't feel like you have to spend a lot of time there, but I think it's important for our listeners to know what happened. Because what you've been describing is what happened to you guys after this happened. So just take us back and briefly bring us up to date and what led to that that visit that night by the sheriff's office.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Okay, so David and his girlfriend Caitlyn had ridden bikes to a movie and they'd watched a movie. It was some missionary movie, I guess, that they had seen, and they were on their way back on their bikes back to Baylor.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

At the intersection, it's they were on Franklin. It's down in the 3,000 area of Franklin, I never remember, 3,100 or something like that. They were about to actually turn into a parking lot because Caitlin needed a break and they were gonna just look for maybe someplace to take a break. I don't know where they were gonna go, it was about 10 o'clock at night. And Tammy Blank and Ship had been at a party. It was a party with Midway. Midway's the big school, one of the big school districts down in Waco. It was a party of administrators, and she was there and she was drinking.

The Hit And Run Details

SPEAKER_01 16:35

And it later came out that she was a heavy drinker. She got in her car to leave and drove down Franklin and was speeding based on testimony, and she hit him pretty much from my understanding. She hit him straight on and didn't even slow down. Basically drove right through him. He then went up onto her windshield, he was hit on the head, like back on the head. It cracked his skull around here and severed his spinal cord. So he was he was gone before he even hit the ground. She drove by, he went over the car. Yeah, and then even in the pictures. No, I haven't seen all the pictures, but there was blood all the way down the road. Yeah, it was a really, really, really violent, devastating crash. His girlfriend Caitlin had so much blood on her, they thought she had been injured, but she hadn't she hadn't been injured. Yeah, and then what happened was Ms. Blankenship then the next day had someone help her hide her car. There's so much dishonesty in what went on, but what what we understand happened is she recognized which that she had hit somebody. She said she thought she hit a homeless person, saw that a student from Baylor had been killed. So she hid her car about 45 minutes away in a Walmart parking lot. Fortunately, she had received some phone calls during this time and they were able to track her car and track where she was at the time of the crash. So she was right where he was hit at the time of the crash. She then got her car back. About three weeks later, she put the car, she sent it over to Mechanic and used her insurance to get it fixed so that there were photographs of the car. And then she just went on with her life for two years.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Two years.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Two years. She at the time had two students. One was David's age, one a little older, who were Baylor students. She was at homecoming. They took some of us on the field and gave us David's uniform. They had dedicated the march, David was in marching band and they dedicated their show to David. And some of us had to return home. But there were uh two of my daughters that I stayed back. And she was, as far as we understand, she was at that game when they honored our family, never came forward.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

And two years later, somebody wrote a letter indicating that they knew someone connected to hiding the car and they needed to talk to the person who helped move the car. And after they did that, then they she gave them the name of the person that had hit them.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Wow. And as I recall in our conversation a few weeks ago, you said that because of a lot of, I guess, the typical legal process, the trial didn't actually come up until 2024. Yes. Is that correct? Is that correct? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Between COVID and just the slow movement of the county.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I that's that's an awful long time. But during the trial, as I understand it, she was convicted, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yes, she was.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And is now serving time.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yes. She received 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine what those what it was, eight years before it went to trial, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Seven and a half, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Seven and a half. Yeah. I I simply cannot imagine what you guys went through in that that long time period. Probably seemed like a lot longer than seven and a half years.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Tell us a little bit about what your lives were like, particularly in those first few months. And sometimes a lot of I've heard a lot of people say that the second year can even be more difficult than the first. People often don't they only understand what they see on the surface, right, Diane? They see the emotions and they they know that I mean they know what happened, but they don't really realize what goes on internally. They don't realize how it affects marriages and families and really every aspect of life. So if you don't mind, just share a little of what your lives look like during that first year or two.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Well, the real struggle, okay, of course, when your kid dies, your brain kind of turns to mush. You live in this kind of fog and you think, I don't remember what I've said, where I'm supposed to be, what's going on. But I had five children that is homeschooling. We had a robotics competition. I think the robotics competition was three weeks after David was killed. And then my oldest daughter was c competing in a concerto competition.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Okay, so three weeks after you got a robotics competition. And you're homeschooling, you said four children, five at the same time. So how long a break was there between their studies when when you got the news about David and continuing their studies?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

I think I took three weeks off, three to four weeks.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

That's not

The First Year Fog And Functioning

SPEAKER_00 21:49

very long.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

It wasn't, but the problem was I had two kids in high school.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And so you've got to get through the material.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

So I you know, everything's kind of a blur, but I'm I'm an action person. Like, let's get it done. But your brain's not working. So yeah, it was we decided pretty much right away we were going to do the competition because our 12-year-old Thomas was 12 at the time, and he is just 100% mechanical engineer. And this is so important to him. And then his sister, who was 14, Elizabeth, she's the head of the team. So we're looking around and we know, well, David would want the team to keep going forward. So we're just going to do the best we can.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

And I remember we would go out and they would compete and then I would go in the bathroom and sob. And then I'd go back out and I think no one would have like you said no one would have any clue what's actually going on here.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

You're just shutting the part down. You're like these kids need to have their parents they can't do this on their own. And I also remember with Mary, we're taking her she was 16, we're taking her about an hour away for her competition. And you're just like we just have to do this. We these kids like this is their life too. A lot of things we didn't do. And I remember getting to the end of that first year and the girls I had two girls in the same grade and they were in 10th grade because they were high school sophomores when David was a a college sophomore and thinking I don't really know what we what we did. I I don't did we get it done I gotta do transcripts. I don't know if we did it and kind of like having to slow down and and look at it and realizing okay we're going to be okay. We're going to get through this I think we're going to be okay you know yeah and then of course it comes about August September and that fog lifts and then you're facing the grief with no fog. Yeah that's when it gets very raw and I remember you know our pastor telling my husband early on well you guys seemed fine. Like there was really no church outreach after two weeks and my husband was trying to explain that we're like we're devastated we're we're you know you know you're crying every single day. Your your eyes are tired of tears. You don't want to go anywhere because your nose is red and and the pastor is saying well you did robotics we figured you were fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Oh gosh. Yeah I I understand what you're saying Diane and uh parents who've lost a child understand what you're saying. Because they've lived it. We've all lived it in one one way shape or form. And I remember we didn't go to we didn't go back to church for a couple of months after we lost Ryan. But when we did we would go purposefully late and we would leave slightly early to avoid conversations and uncomfortable avoidance of conversations.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

But I remember this is probably two, three months after we lost and that somebody made the comment to some friends of ours that they thought that we were fine because they saw us in church. And we assured the ones who told us this you know we're anything but fine. Outward appearances can be so deceiving when you're you know when you are on your grief journey because we try to hold it together because otherwise we feel like we're living a life of having fallen apart and we don't want it on public display too much. So I say all of that to say I can so readily identify with that. And unfortunately sometimes those in the church are the ones who seem to disappear pretty quickly you know within a week or two after it happens when we that's when we really start needing the support is you know after once the shock wears off and then it's sometimes it's hard to find people in it. And even pastors don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

No we we found out in 2018 that they had found the person who had killed him but we had left our church just a few months earlier than that because they made it clear that they didn't we were unwelcome with our grief and we couldn't get rid of the grief.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Okay's take a step back they made it plain to you they didn't know you weren't welcome to bring your grief with you is what I think I'm hearing. You were welcome to show up as long as you didn't talk about your loss.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

My gosh that is I mean that's just unthinkable.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

I don't wow right and and trying to communicate that to people turned into you almost become

When Church Support Disappears

SPEAKER_01 26:43

kind of a lab rat. They're just watching you and poking you with a stick in some ways and my husband was I can't take this anymore you know one very very soon after David was killed one of the pastors came into where he works and said to him do you wish it was about I would say it's three or four weeks after David was killed and he said do you wish that it had been a different kid who had died instead of David because David was just so full of life.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

What?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

And I mean and I you know it was just really hard because you're you're you're grieving I mean Clark was he works at a rental store in a bike shop he manages that and he would go into his bike shop and sobe out when customers came and like get it together help the customer go back into his bike shop. And so your pat one of your pastors is being so incredibly inappropriate. But at the same time some of these men these old farmers and you know different construction workers are coming in and telling him how sorry they are they're talking about David they're coming around Clark and supporting him and being so kind every day that for that first year someone came in and talked about David to Clark but it wasn't the church.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

When you need that kind of support when you need the support of your pastor you need the support of brothers and sisters in Christ you would think and hope and pray that they would be the front line of help the front line of compassion and you and I both understand we're not making a blanket statement about the church, about the church, the big C church. This is what happened in your church. Yours is not the only church where this has happened because I've talked to too many other guests who have shared similar experiences. It's not a time when people need to come and try to put spiritual band-aids on us. You know a band-aid on what is a huge gaping surgical wound. Scripture can be very encouraging it can be very helpful when it's timed right but it's not a time to be talking about theology it's not a time to be telling people how they should or shouldn't feel no it's about compassion and kindness and your presence I mean after all you know when Jesus was here and interacting with people he didn't approach people who were dealing with life and death situations and the darkest places in in their in their lives and spout off theology he came to them with kindness and compassion and and with his presence and that's what we need to do better.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Wow I'm so sorry that you guys had that experience but thankful that those other people just the regular ordinary people who who were in your lives would come by and offer their presence and just let you know they had not forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

I suspect that you guys probably did not stay at that church for very long it was a little tricky Clark at left after a year and he had we asked for support they were not interested yeah I stayed longer because my daughter and I were helping with music at the beginning of the service and so I was trying to kind of stay out my obligation and she enjoyed it. But at that point six months or so of going without him and really two people asked why he wasn't there in those six months and I said at the end we were leaving I said they don't speak to us at all I said Mary we're the help we come in we play music we leave no one speaks to us there's no point in being here it just became very awkward. You know people are wondering I we used to come to church with our six kids and then five kids and all of a sudden it's just two of us and they're not asking so you know it was just like well after a while you just leave because it's very clear there's no place for you. I will say that after we left one person did reach out and there were a few people who had reached out while we were there but someone did reach out and ask why we left that was the only person who asked me why I left that at least I don't recall. So looking back at that time what would the support have looked like that you guys craved you know I I'll be honest all I wanted was maybe the pastor to pray with us maybe once a month maybe talk to us once a month or somebody and and just pray with us and ask us how we were it would have been nice if a woman in the church had called and come over just once or twice. We weren't looking for any sort of huge support group for us. We just wanted to know there was someone we could talk to but that didn't happen. No and you know one time when we brought up soon after Dave was killed we brought up something to the pastor he just got very uncomfortable raised his hands in the air in front of my 16 year old daughter and said no no no and walked out of the sanctuary wow and then one time someone we had this prayer group I wasn't exactly sure who was on it but I was told can we have your prayer requests we would like them to be specific and at the time we were going through some things that were deeply personal and very private and I said I cannot give you specifics and she said well we really like them. I said well I will not three times she pushed me for specifics right in the lobby and I'm like specifics my son is dead how much more do you need than that and I finally I just said I I can't do that right now and I left and then she went to see my husband people from the church would go into his work every once in a while and torment him at church and say things inappropriate and she went in there and she said well I tried to get some prayer requests but your wife was very strange about it. Wow you couldn't make this stuff up I know yeah I mean it was it it just became very clear that was not the place for us anymore.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah you probably stayed a lot longer than I would have so okay so six months later seven eight months later did you got were you guys able to find another church?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah that was tough I started my kids had moved to a different church and I started going with them it it's very difficult in a small town and people know yeah and I would go so I go to church with them but you sit in this in the in the sanctuary and you sob in the back and then you leave you're very uncomfortable and it just didn't end up being a really good fit for me to do that. It was very hard in me Clark would not go. He was just so hurt he wouldn't go and then I was trying and then the pastor started engaging me I remember at one point in an email discussion and I just tried to pour my heart and say we're so hurt with how people have treated us and the response is pretty much well the church isn't perfect.

Trying Again After Deep Hurt

SPEAKER_01 34:16

No apology no we really would like to do better. It it was just you know and then you get a lot of well people don't know what to say basically you make them uncomfortable. You feel like you're contagious sometimes don't you pretty much so I ended up you know we left that church and started attending a very very small church kind of on and off and that was okay but my problem was now as I I'm no longer homeschooling I only work casually I needed to have some sort of community just recently so this has been oh babe David's been dead nine and a half years. So just recently I started going to church with my oldest daughter and that's been a very different experience. They've been much more welcoming but I'm so I find myself so cautious. Defensive yes and very don't know that church is for people like me.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

That's you know it's to say it is a shame for you to have been made to feel that way is such an understatement. That should be the place that grieving parents should be able to run to into open arms I get it that people don't get us I get it that people we make people feel uncomfortable. We don't do it on purpose and I would you know and you'd like to ask well you know if we make you feel uncomfortable can you imagine how uncomfortable we feel having lost our child and are trying to figure out how to do life on on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

And yeah I I want you to answer this because I want people who are listening who maybe know somebody else who's lost a child and they're listening because they want to to know if there's anything that they can pick up that would that would be helpful. So if somebody in that in any of the churches that you've been to were to walk up to you whether it was six months after or here nine and a half years later and ask you about David by name would that upset you or would you just feel like oh my gosh somebody remembers my child and they are kind enough to ask which way would you react?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

I'd be thrilled and of course you would it just happened to

Saying David’s Name Helps

SPEAKER_01 36:47

me when when I went to my daughter's church and I was I was thinking I'm gonna I'm gonna get through this time and I'm not gonna have to go through an awkward time and I'm not gonna say anything about David. I'm just not gonna do it it'll be fine then we'll leave and somebody from my past I've just known for a long time but I hadn't seen in a number of years she walked over said I just wanted to say hello so happy to have you here and I thought oh well hello and then she said how have you got but how have you guys been doing since David died and I thought of course you know the tears well up but my my thought was that's so kind of you to think of us in that way yes and then it opened up the door which I had not planned on opening because at the moment I was talking to the pastor and his wife and I knew them a little bit and they were so they're just being so kind. But it just opened up the door for that conversation a little bit awkward but they didn't make it awkward. And I was able to tell them a little bit kind of where we were coming from and why I was there with all my husbands, you know, and it was a really a really really different situation. They were open and kind and caring and it was all because Emily walked over and asked that question.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Wow yeah I remember us talking about that when we talked uh on the phone a few weeks ago and I thought what a stark contrast to how you guys were treated where you were at the church you were in initially when it happened and here are people who I mean you know one from the past but these these others you don't know all that well you know who they are and maybe you've had a conversation with them at some point but you don't do life with them regularly. And yet in that moment they didn't have time to prepare they didn't have time to think about what they would say, what they wouldn't say how they would react but they did it right simply because they showed kindness and compassion and they listened to you. And that's it it's not rocket science. It's just showing up it's about offering your presence it's about being willing to listen and just show kindness and compassion even if you feel uncomfortable. We all feel uncomfortable those are not comfortable conversations. It's not a comfortable way to live when you're on your grief journey particularly in the first few years we just we crave people like that because they are the ones who are kind of few and far between but those are the kind of people that make such an impact and if that's you today and you're you're listening because it's somebody you want to know how to help somebody else please don't be standoffish. Please just be willing to put yourself aside and step into the pain and into the grief with that that parent that you know is is suffering like in ways that you cannot even begin to imagine. You have no idea what it'll mean to them and by all means please ask them about their child. Just ask ask them to share a favorite memory do you if you have a memory with their child ask it would it be okay if I shared this story about David?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

It's very simple honestly right right it's it we're we're not asking for some profound explanation of why God allowed something like this to happen to us. We we are we recognize that that answer is not available to us.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Exactly and it's okay you know we don't need that it doesn't change anything if God were to answer all those questions about our whys and all that that just kind of constantly flows through our minds all those questions. That's one of the things that that he was kind enough to help me understand early on after we lost Ryan Ryan took his own life and so that brings up a lot of questions and you know you feel guilty and the list goes on and on and on and and I remember very clearly that that God spoke to me and said you know even if I gave you all those reasons why it wouldn't change anything. And if you had those answers then you would also have to deal with those answers. It wouldn't be so simple as just to know that you had answers because we all want them. Feel like we have to have answers before we can have closure or before we can have peace.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I think God knows us so well and loves us so much that he doesn't always give us those answers but says just trust me give it to me and I'll give you my peace and I'll give you my comfort exactly I remember early on kind of having a panic attack and thinking I'm never going to see him again I'm never going to see him again he's got he's lost forever. I don't understand and God just saying you're not gonna I can't explain this all to you right now you're not gonna understand it. But David rests with me it's all gonna be okay and kind of taking a deep breath and and accepting that and realizing that my job is to accept God's faithfulness and God's love. Right and trust that he's okay. Remember at David's funeral my dad spoke and he said God did not drive the car that killed David he didn't want this was not what God wanted for us. He said but God was there to rescue him and God rejoiced when David entered into his presence in heaven and and you're like that's wow that's the kind of God we serve.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah so he's trustworthy I don't get it I'm not I don't have to get it no we don't but there are some things that are just beyond our ability to understand. And we have we have finite minds and there are some things that are beyond our limited abilities and that's why it's called faith.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Wouldn't require faith if you could see it and if you had all the answers.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

When you look back at these past nine and a half years Diane even though we don't give advice we're not in the business of giving advice on this podcast because everybody's grief journey is unique. We do share a lot of things in common that's for sure. But one thing I would like for you just to offer to our listeners in terms of things that you found beneficial and helpful sources of hope and support and encouragement along the way over these past years. What did those things look like for you? I mean what forms did they come in whether it was books or radio programs or yes you know there are a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

I think immediately what was helpful for us is we went down to Baylor. See David was killed on a Thursday and we went to Baylor I think it was on a Tuesday and they held a memorial service there. And I mean oh my goodness day and night compared to the church how they treated us they recognized they honored his life they recognized his value I Remember, David played trumpet in marching band, the trumpet studio, and it's an amazing trumpet studio. They played at his funeral. The marching band director spoke at his funeral. The assistant spoke. They were just so kind and welcoming. We've made such good friends by this connection. The parent network coordinator was brand

Finding Your People And Resources

SPEAKER_01 44:21

new in her job. She didn't want to deal with us because she was scared and she said God told her to do what she's told and help. And she's become such a dear friend to us. It was like the people there were so willing to do the right thing and to honor David and to honor God and honor God's life that was lived through David. We met as friends. They were like 19 years old, and these guys were amazing. They were kind, they talked to us, they shared stories. David was living in the honors college. They had a big event where they shared stories about David. That was an incredibly healing time. And so what I learned through that is find your people, find the people who will say those things to you, who will support you. We were so fortunate because it became a really large group down at Baylor. And we've kept in touch with his girlfriend and his friends and a number of professors. The marching band director is a good friend. That we were really, really fortunate to get that level of support. But find your people, even if it's just a couple of people, they will speak life into you. I did read a lot of books. Reading the one by Walter Storff. Have you read that? It'll come to me.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Oh gosh, no.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Lament for a son.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

It's really, really a difficult read. It's not very long, but it's so painful, but it really supports you in your grief. It lets you know you're normal. And it just honors the life of your child. I mean, you're grieving somebody that mattered very deeply to you, and he really honors that. That was helpful. I'm the daughter of Bible teachers. So I started reading some theology because I felt like if my son lives with God, I want to know who God is a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

And that was really helpful to me just to start to understand in my little way what is God doing? What is He saying? I so wanted to know what God was saying to me. And I guess I'm not done with that journey, but I guess the answer was redeeming the world.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yes. And I don't know about you, Diane, but we craved any kind of information that we could read about heaven. Because we Ryan was a believer like David. And so we knew that he was with the Lord. And we know what the Bible says about heaven, but it's not all that much in detail. And so we just craved anything that we could find, could get our hands on that would tell us a little bit more about what life was like where Ryan is now. And I remember we read a book called The Real Heaven by Chip Ingram. It's not a long read, but man, it just spoke volumes to us. I appreciate you sharing that. Compared to nine and a half or ten years ago, there are a number of resources available now to grieving parents that we didn't have. There are a number of podcasts now for grieving parents. There are I've had guests, multiple guests, who have written books after the death of their child. So it, you know, it just speaks to how God can take something so tragic, so traumatic, so painful, and redeem it for good. Right. Both in our lives and in the lives of other people. And it doesn't mean that you have to write a book, doesn't mean you have to start a podcast, doesn't mean you have to start a ministry. But I think what you would say, I think, so tell me if I'm wrong, but I think when we start reaching out to others who have gone through similar trauma and suffering and pain, God uses that to help heal us because we're expressing it. Number one, when we share it, we connect with other people at a heart level. It's far more impactful than just reading information about grief. When we share our stories, and I think that's important, no matter what the platform is, whether it's just one-on-one, whether it's in a group, in your church, whatever that looks like on a podcast like what you're doing right now. I think when we share our stories, it really connects with other people. And then it's like it gives them permission to talk about it. Whereas prior to that, maybe they were too afraid to do it. They were afraid that people would not listen or that people wouldn't be interested, whatever the reason. But I think it gives them permission to know that they can do that too. And it honors our children in the process.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. Well, Diane, I just appreciate so much your willingness to give us some glimpses into your grief journey. I appreciate you sharing with our listeners about your sweet boy, David, and uh the impact that he had on so many lives. And I know that as people listen to this conversation, that they're going to find hope and they're going to find encouragement listening to what you have shared today. So thank you so much for doing that and for being our guest.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

The privilege has been all mine. And if you're listening today and Diane's story touched you, and you would like to share that with us, there is a link. You'll find the link in Diane's episode description. If you'll just simply click that and leave a message, we'd love to hear from our listeners. And if that's the case, I'll certainly share that with Diane. But thank you guys for listening today, and we will look forward to having you back in two weeks.