Hope After Child & Sibling Loss/the empty chair endeavor

Finding Joy in the Midst of Loss, with Linda Cook, Joscelyn’s Mom

• The Empty Chair Endeavor • Season 8 • Episode 6

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In this heartfelt conversation, Greg talks with Linda Cook about her journey of grief after losing her beautiful daughter Jocelyn in a tragic accident. Linda shares her experiences of navigating the complexities of loss, the impact of her faith, and the importance of community support. Through her story, she highlights the ongoing process of healing, the joy of remembering Jocelyn, and the legacy she continues to inspire in others.

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Speaker 3:

Well, hi everyone, and welcome back for our latest episode. I'm Greg Buffkin, and today you'll be hearing a conversation I recently had with Linda Cook as we talk about her 12-year journey after losing her beautiful 21-year-old daughter, Jocelyn, in a tragic traffic accident in early January of 2013. Jocelyn was a bright, energetic student at the Montana State University and was pursuing a degree in nursing. She loved the outdoors, she loved adventure, and most of all, she loved sharing Jesus Christ with other people. Linda and I not only talk about the reality of the impact of grief, but we also talk about how God has carried her through the most painful season of her life and continues to restore hope, joy, and peace today. And now, here's my conversation with Linda. Well, Linda, welcome to our podcast. It's so good to have you today.

Speaker:

Thank you. I'm excited to join you.

Speaker 3:

Well, and it's it's really nice to finally get to meet face to face for our listeners. Linda and I actually met for the first time through a phone conversation back in May. And just because of scheduling issues and how busy life is, this is the first time that even though you're not seeing her, I'm seeing her face to face. So I'm just glad that you could work this out in your schedule, Linda.

Speaker:

Yeah, me too. It's I I can't believe it's been since May, but yeah, me too. It's been a long time unrolling, it feels like.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I know. I know the feeling. Well, hey, listen, why don't you take uh a couple minutes and just tell us a little about yourself? Whatever you would like to share, Linda. And I normally give my guest uh, you know, a couple of minutes to do that.

Speaker:

Okay. Born and raised in Montana, and I got married young, been married for 34 years. We had six daughters. I'm down to the last two at home. A third, four, fourth daughter just finished her first year of college. And so down to the last two, homeschool them. I've been pretty much a stay-at-home mom for the last 34 years. And not gonna lie, I'm a little nervous about what the next few years are gonna look like after I get the last ones out of the house and and figure out what that next chapter looks like. However, I do have a grandbaby, my first grandbaby due any day now. So that that is the new chapter, and I'm pretty excited about that.

Speaker 3:

Congratulations. That's that's some really good news. I know you're looking forward to that.

Speaker:

I really am. I have been ready to be a grandma probably for the last 10 years. I'm ready.

Speaker 3:

And and when is the due date? Remind me.

Speaker:

The due date is actually the 24th, but she's yeah, so she it could be any day. She's been having a lot of contractions and yeah, so pretty exciting. She doesn't live that far from us, and we're hoping that she'll be able to actually move back to our town. She's only an hour and a half away, but I would I would prefer her to be right next door, and I think she'd love to be back in the same town too.

Speaker 3:

So you sound like uh an expectant grandma.

Speaker:

Good. I've been yard sailing, buying the toys that of course you have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I I bet you do prefer that she moves back because you don't want an hour and a half between you and that grain baby, do you?

Speaker:

No, my dream would be to live in a in a mountain in the mountains with all my kids lined up with their, you know, their you know, the Waltons next door. That would be the dream.

Speaker 3:

You sound like a very normal mom.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. You know, we my wife and I are in that next season that you were referring to. You're not sure what you're gonna do with it and what it's gonna look like. You'll figure it out.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

It's it's a good next season.

Speaker:

Yep, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I can't believe you've got six girls.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Not a boy in the bunch.

Speaker:

Not a boy. We we did have a boy for four years. We brought a he was a great nephew that we had come into our home for a few years. And so, but I also have a lot of nephews, so I'm not a stranger to what boys are like because the nephews were here a lot. But yeah, just the six girls. And we had the three, and then we had a nine-year break, and then and then we had three more, and and they're the same age apart, the same, so we always just call them our do-over.

Speaker 2:

Wow.

Speaker:

Our oldest daughter, she because I would say I would tell her, I learned all the I learned the mistakes from you guys, and so now I'm not gonna make the same mistakes, and she was so wise beyond her years. She said, Well, that's true, but you'll make new ones, and she wasn't wrong.

Speaker 3:

No, she wasn't. I don't even have to know your story to know that, being a parent myself. Well, your husband must be an incredibly patient and gracious man to have raised six daughters.

Speaker:

Well, there was this older lady in church that one time told him, I know why God gave you six daughters. It's because you're such a sensitive man at heart. And and he is, he is very sensitive, and he's all bad. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I bet those girls love their daddy too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's so sweet. Well, listen, one of the reasons that that you are here today is to talk about your daughter, Jocelyn. And you know, you guys lost Jocelyn in a traffic accident, what, 12 years ago, almost 13 years ago now.

Speaker:

Yeah, it'll be 13 years in January.

Speaker 3:

In January. And she was a student at Montana State studying to be a nurse, right?

Speaker 1:

Right. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Why don't you just take a few minutes, Linda, and tell us about Jocelyn? Because from what I've read, she just sounds like an amazing young lady.

Speaker:

She, yeah. Jocelyn was had the ability to make friends with everyone. She was, she had a heart for the Lord. She, and I think the Lord just put in her heart him knowing that her time here was short. So she almost had this fervency of sharing the word. She shared the word with her teachers at school before before I started homeschooling her. She would share tracks, she would share videos, she would share the word of God with everybody she met. And she carried that on at school. I don't know. That girl had the ability to interrupt a basketball game and drag everyone off to Bible study. I I didn't do that, but she did it. She was the kind of girl that would walk into the cafeteria and see someone sitting in the corner by themselves, and she would walk up to them and ask if she could join them for lunch and and and and drag them off to Bible study. And so her door was always, she was an RA in the dorms, her door was always open.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And she just made friends with everybody she met.

Speaker 3:

Oh wow. Those are rare people.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So as her as her mom, what's what's one of your favorite memories of something that you guys did together, Linda?

Speaker:

Jocelyn. Well, we did a lot of outdoor things. Living in Montana hiking, we we would go Mother's Day, probably was one of our favorite things. We would go hiking on Mother's Day. So we'd have our Mother's Day hikes, camping, and just things like that, spending time in the outdoors and church. Our church family was so amazing. And Sundays, I lived for Sundays. They were just, it was the country church. We would go to church, we would worship the Lord, we would sing. Afterwards, we'd have a potluck. The kids were playing baseball out in the out behind the church. So we had a very strong homeschool community there. And yeah, those were the good old days. Those, those were good times.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Sweet memories now. Those are like treasures, aren't they?

Speaker:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Sleepovers. Yeah. All the, you know, just all the things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those it's it's so good when you're when you've uh God brings you to the point where you've you've been through all of that acute pain and and trauma of of losing your child, and then at some point, and you don't even really realize it as it's happening, uh, the healing process is bringing you to a place where you know it's like all of a sudden you, you know, one day you can laugh about something and you don't feel guilty about it anymore.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

And your focus turns away from from death and loss to life again. And I mean for our listeners who maybe are haven't gotten to that place yet, they're still in that acute season of grief. Just hang on. And if you'll lean into the Lord and give this to Him and let other people in to help carry your grief, you're gonna get there. And and you will experience joy again. The grief shouldn't go away, it doesn't not not implying that in the least. It's just that you'll discover that joy and wholeness and meaning and purpose can coexist with that grief.

Speaker:

Yeah. And you can learn that you I have learned myself that I I am a better person since her accident. I am much more empathetic, I am more sympathetic, I I have the ability to listen better than I ever have before. Because before I was always trying to solve someone's problem, realizing that, you know, sometimes there's no solution, that people just need to not even necessarily talk, but sometimes just be. Just yeah, just be. And yeah, I I definitely, yeah, I don't know. I I'm still learning, I think.

Speaker 3:

And and and it's a lifelong learning process, isn't it? And you just touched on something that I think is really important, Linda. And and that is that uh sometimes people who are looking in from the outside, you know, their family, their friends, people that that we know at church. And when we go through something like this, they most want to help, but most are they're very uncomfortable sometimes around us because they don't know what to do with us. And sometimes they feel like if maybe if they say the right thing or if they do the right thing, it'll help you feel better. And that it'll make a huge difference. And sometimes what they don't realize is they're kind of trying to figure out how to fix us, even if they're not consciously you know doing it for that reason. And I love what you said because sometimes it's good to just come and be with that person. You don't have to say anything, and believe me, there's nothing that you can say that's going to make it all better. So that just let that be be a reassurance that you don't have to to come and and hang out and have the right words to say. That just should just let you feel like you're off the hook. Just be with them. And if they want to talk, you know, we'll talk. And sometimes we just aren't there, we don't want to talk, right?

Speaker:

Yeah. I did have I had a few I had a few friends that lost their children. And after those are the only friends that I wanted to be with, and I didn't not because I wanted to talk, not because I wasn't ready to talk. I did just want to be with them because I knew that they were the only ones who could even come close to understand what I was going through. So just knowing that they knew how much I was hurting, even just that brought me comfort because I knew I was not alone and that I was not going to walk this path alone.

Speaker 3:

Sure. Well, that's that's really important because when something like this happens, you you feel incredibly alone, and you can feel very alone and isolated, even in a crowd. And it's it's very difficult to under to explain that to somebody else who hasn't lived it. And that's why it's um it that was such a blessing for you to have some others who have lived it, because you don't have to explain it to them, they get it. And and it that in itself does bring some reassurance that you're seeing these people who have not only experienced it, but they've lived through it, and they're in, I mean, they've they've come through that grief journey, and they're now in a place where they can can come alongside you.

Speaker:

And I could see that they were, you know, where they were, that they were they were living again. They were you know, I could see that they had joy in their lives. I could so that I knew that I was not going to always feel like in this dark, dark place. I knew there was light at the end of the tunnel, but there was one one lady that she'd lost two children in a car accident. She was my male lady, small town, so we all know every everybody, but she was my male lady. She brought me my mail just I don't know, if maybe a week, two, three, I don't know, afterwards. She brought me my mail and I caught her outside. And and all I wanted to know, because she she asked me, is there anything I can do for you? Because that's what everybody asks. What can I do for you? But the one thing I wanted this gal to tell me was how long? How long am I going to ache this bad? How long am I going to feel like I can't get out of bed in the morning? How long before Jocelyn was the last thing I thought about when I went to bed? And the first thing I thought about in the morning, how I wanted a date on my calendar that I could circle so that I could know that that's what I'm looking for. I got to get to this date, and then everything's going to be okay. And her response to me was that first year, you you got to get through the first year because it's all the first. The first birthday, the first, you know, the first anniversary of the accident, the first holiday without her, the first, you know, just all the firsts. And that was her response. And that that that did give me that gave me a target date, as long as I could circle something on the calendar to look to the light at the end of the tunnel. But that woman was so precious. Just just I knew I yeah. And and again, just even bumping into her on the sidewalk, just in the very presence of her for the few moments, just brought me an immeasurable amount of peace. Because she was smiling.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, exactly. You can see life because you don't when you're in that acute season of grief, you don't feel life very much. You just you feel like you're existing, but not really living. And I would like for us to spend a few minutes talking about that, Linda. That's the the hard part of grief. The hardest part of grief, I should say, I think is in that early season. Whether it be a year, some people say it's two years, some people say it's longer. The grief is for a lifetime, but the acuteness of it does begin to fade over time, and it becomes more like of a chronic thing that we always live with. But because people who are there now in that raw season of it sometimes feel like they're losing their mind, and they feel like life is never going to be good again, and they wonder if they even want to survive it. What was that like for you as far as you know, because you and I know that there's it impacts us physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I mean, there's nothing about us that it doesn't touch. So for you, what did that look like?

Speaker:

The I felt like I had a traumatic brain injury. I felt like I was losing my mind. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, and it didn't just last days, weeks, months. It lasted a very, very long time. And so every single day was just getting through the day. But I did, I really, really did. I tried to find Jesus in everything because he was my lifeline. I had Jeremiah 29, 11 was my verse that I hung on to and and just repeated. In fact, see, I've got it. Let me see if I can.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I was gonna ask you to to read that because there are listeners today who who aren't familiar with that verse.

Speaker:

So what the version that I have on my wall, I'm actually not sure what translation it is, but for I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope in a future, because and to give you hope in a future, not to harm you because that felt like harm. You could take my arms, my legs, and that would have been better than taking my child, or not that the Lord took her, that would have been better than losing my child. But his plans were not to harm me, but to give me hope and a future. And I I clung on to the future. I knew that I had a bright future. I still have five children here, but not only that, I still have Jocelyn's legacy here, the one that she started, the one that she began with her friends, with her acquaintances that she met at school, um, people who came to know the Lord from the from what she had shared with them. Um I knew that I still had those things. And so that helped me get through day by day.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and and sometimes our our feelings and emotions be betray that what you know. Um you know, you you knew that, and so you could hang on to that. You knew that God was going to carry you through this, that you could trust him. It, you know, he it broke his heart when Jocelyn died. And we live in a fallen world, and bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to followers of Jesus. And, you know, God doesn't remove all of those things in the in the world that we live in, but he promised he would go with us through those things and that he would carry us. And it's also a reason that we need to let other people in after something like this so that they can help carry that grief, even though they can't, they're not living it, they can help shoulder some of the the burden that you know that we go through.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And I had a I had a I just had to have the ability to remind myself over and over that, you know, Job, where were you when I laid the laid the foundations of the earth? God can see every single facet of every single possibility of why what life could or would look like. And I trust that what he what he did, what he allowed to happen that day, January 6th, 2013, that still my life it did not alter the my life in such a way that it was going to turn out bad. I mean, because I mean a lot of people turn to drugs, turn to alcohol, turn to I trust that he had my future, that he was giving me personally a future.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and that's really important to be to try to to remember to hang on to what you know. And it it always takes me back to to Romans 8 28. I think it's uh it's really it's so important for us to understand when we're going through something that is so traumatic and it just absolutely feels like it's crushing us. And it's that in that verse, Jesus said that, uh I'm sorry, that Paul said that God will use all things for good in our lives for those who know him and are called according to his purpose. It you know, when you lose a child, it's really hard to imagine that God can do anything good with that, isn't it? I mean, because it's not how we feel. You know, sometimes losing a child leaves us feeling angry with God because we know that he's sovereign and he could have stopped it had he chosen to. But he also had a bigger plan than what we're able to to even begin to try to conceive of. But he will use it for good, and you can't see it then, but in retrospect, I'm sure that you could probably say, just like we can't, that we have seen God, we have witnessed God use Ryan's death for good in the lives of other people. And I know you've been in this for two years longer than we have. And so I know you've witnessed this more than we have.

Speaker:

Well, first of all, for myself, I know that a lot of people did struggle, but for myself, I did not struggle with anger. Not a single time, not once, not even towards the man who caused the accident. Even with him, I was filled with grace and I prayed for him because I knew that he did not cause that accident on purpose. I knew I have sped before. I have tried to get to from point A to point B recklessly before. Notice by the grace of God that I did not cause a car accident. I did have a lot of grace with him. And also the Lord gave me gifts along the way that made everything more bearable for me, such as when she was headed back to Montana State University, it was right after Christmas break. And so she had all of her Christmas presents boxed up. They were driving in a little Toyota pickup, and right behind her, right behind her head, she had a box of her little treasures that she got for Christmas. Sitting right on top was a very delicate little glass teapot, just like right reachable, just right there. And that, so she heard the accident caused a traumatic brain injury. And well, she actually died instantly. But the little teapot that was right there didn't even get, I wish I would have, it's in my kitchen. I wish I would have brought it down to hold up to you, but it very delicate glass. It it did not get a chip, not a scratch on that thing. One one hundredth of a second would have made all the difference. She would still be here if one one hundredth of a second had gone by and her head would have been there instead of here. Just that that was a gift. That was a gift because it did our days are numbered. The Lord knows exactly when our our days are over here on earth. And so, because of that, I trusted him. And then very shortly after her accident, I already had people messaging me telling me that they came to know the Lord because of her accident, because of the words that she had shared with them, it became real to them almost immediately upon finding out the news. And so those little things to me were they were gifts. They were they were ball on the burn.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, what incredible comfort that must have provided. And and just I'm sure that it just filled your heart with such pride that that your daughter, with the with the time that she did have, not knowing, you know, that her life was was going to be cut short, but that she chose to invest her time in the lives of other people and wanted them to know Jesus.

Speaker:

Yeah. Well, a funny story. So she was taking nursing, right? She, and a lesson, a funny story, plus a lesson here. She was taking nursing. And when you are taking nursing, you really cannot afford to get anything less than an A. It's got to be an A because you have to, for your pre-nursing classes, so that you could get accepted into nursing school. It's a very competitive program.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Well, the girl was not getting A's. She got a couple C's and she had to repeat some classes. And the re reason she was getting not A's is because she was investing so much in people. She was going to all the Bible studies. She was dragging people along with her to the Bible studies. And if she was, you know, dragging people to the Bible studies, well, she had to go too. So she was not studying her chemistry and anatomy and physiology like she should. But her dad were like, Jocelyn, you have got to buckle down and get better grades. You have to spend more time. Maybe just not so many Bible studies, but she good, you know, she didn't listen to her dad and I. And I can, I'm so grateful for that because she knew it. She was, and like I said earlier, she had a fervency for her work here. And she was very serious about it. She, it was just inside of her, she knew what she needed to get done, and she did it. And I am grateful for that, that she did not listen to us and our and I know that there are some other people who are grateful for that too.

Speaker 3:

And and parents who are grateful for that.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Jocelyn for sorry. You're not Jocelyn, you're Linda. So Linda, what are some things that you think helped you and those that have helped you on an ongoing basis along the way, and you're learning how to process your grief in a healthy way. Because there are people that are listening today, and although we don't offer advice, we don't offer counseling because we're not counselors. You and I are we're experienced, wish that we weren't.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

But we can share what helped us. And so our listeners can maybe they can borrow from something that helped you or that helped me and applied in in their own grief journey. What would you say to that?

Speaker:

Well, for personally, what I did was I listened to a lot of praise and worship music that helped. I exercised a lot. Actually, that may have not been the most healthiest, even though it's exercise and it sounds healthy, it may not it was self-destructive almost because I would run. I would run until I could run no more. And I was because I wanted to feel physical pain to divert my attention from the emotional pain that I was that I was feeling.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure.

Speaker:

I was looking for the endorphin high, and really I really didn't find that. So that and that hurt. It was painful. So I kind of I didn't do that for too long, um, maybe about three months after her accident.

Speaker 3:

But it was a distraction, wasn't it?

Speaker:

It was very much a distraction. And I, you know, it considering what else is out there, it was it was a healthy distraction.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker:

But no, actually, it wasn't. It was not a healthy distraction, it was unhealthy.

Speaker 3:

It was but well, it could have been a whole lot less healthy, that's for certain.

Speaker:

Yeah. A praise and worship music, though. I I don't remember which of her friends I reached out to, but I I downloaded her playlist of her her praise and worship music that she listened to. And I listened to that a lot. And then I I really just look forward to heaven. Not in a manner of where I wanted to die, but I will I am still very much looking forward to heaven. I am very much looking forward to the reunion. And so I did read the book. Heaven by Randy Alcorn. And that book brought me so much comfort and peace. I listened to Pastor Greg Lori a lot because he also lost his son in a car accident. And so going back to the, you know, just people who have walked through it and got to the other side and they made it, so to speak. Looking to them is what helped me get through through the the grief. And I was, and to this day, the book of 2 Samuel is my favorite book of the Bible because that is what she was reading when she died. And I have her Bible and all of her notes and everything. And so I studied 2 Samuel over and over and over. And that brought me peace and comfort. And so the word of God, praise and worship music, and other people that just really aligning myself with people who knew my pain is really what got me through those months.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And you know, I I concur with everything that you said, Linda. And, you know, it there are different things that work better for different people. I think a lot of times we hear that, you know, that music plays a big role in helping people to just in not necessarily in processing the grief, but it's just like a balm that you were describing a few minutes ago. And it if that works for you, then by all means, but don't as you're listening today, please don't feel like that you have to do something because somebody else did. Because it it's not a one-size-fits-all, is it? I mean, it's grief journeys are very unique.

Speaker:

My husband processed completely different. He started a bunch of new hobbies. He he started gold panning and he erected this giant aquaponics system, which is actually hilarious because my husband, if aquaponics is the relationship between plants and fish. And my husband hates vegetables, and so he erected this whole greenhouse and and started growing vegetables, which he hates. And so, yes, everybody processes and gets through it differently.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and it's so common to hear a a mom talk about her her how her husband dealt with grief, and almost predictably, it's exactly what you described. It's doing practical things, things that that keep him occupied, that keep him focused, uh, where he, you know, it's like we described that distraction when you were running hard. It may not necessarily be the right answer, but it does provide sometimes a necessary distraction when it's so raw. And it's just men and women just deal with it very differently.

Speaker:

And you want to know the most ridiculous thing we did. We we went to the county fair that so the accident was in January. Our county fair is always Labor Day weekend, and there were baby pigs for sale. We we drove a minivan at the time, and we came, we brought pigs home in our minivan. Like, never have neither none of us have ever had anything to do with pigs. We brought home pigs to raise and had nothing, no, no pen, no nothing to put them in when we got here. So they were they ran around in our yard and it took forever to catch them. And yeah, so we just did silly, silly things, but we still raise them to this day, though.

Speaker 3:

What in the world led you guys to come home with pigs?

Speaker 1:

I don't know. We just thought, oh, let's do this. This might be fun.

Speaker 3:

Seemed like a good idea at the time, right?

Speaker:

So stick to some healthy distractions like reading the word of God, and then there's not so healthy and bringing home our car smelled for weeks after that.

Speaker 3:

Really?

Speaker:

Yes, pigs don't smoke it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I can only imagine. But hey, if it works, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, we still still raise pigs. And now our take them to the county fair.

Speaker 3:

So that worked out. But what in the what do you think Jocelyn would think of that?

Speaker:

I'm pretty sure she Jocelyn laughed about everything. I'm sure she was laughing. She is like, oh my, yeah.

Speaker 3:

I'm sure she probably was then. So let's talk about something that we kind of touched on a little while ago, and that is where you are now. You know, we talked about that acute season of grief. But you've come a long way. It's been 12 years, as as we touched on earlier. And sometimes it's really easy to fall into the trap of going into survival mode after it happens. Because it's it's the easiest thing to do sometimes. We don't have to, you don't really have to work at it. You don't have to make a lot of choices or decisions that that are gonna require a lot of energy, that are gonna require stepping out of your comfort zone and that sort of thing, because nothing's easy. I mean, you know, let's face it, nothing is easy after losing a child. But you know that your child wouldn't want you to stay there. And you know that deep down inside you don't really want to stay there either, but sometimes you you choose you almost choose by not choosing to do that, and it it can uh it can almost become your identity if you're not careful. That you know the focus is what you've lost and what you'll never have again. And so to stay there in that survival mode can be a very lonely and miserable place. So for you, what what do you think where along the line do you think that you started making that turn towards towards life again and being able to focus on all the all the funny and sweet and and and good things that you remember about not only Jocelyn, but the the things that you guys did together and shared in life together.

Speaker:

Yeah. Well, I think before because I and I'm I have a friend that's here from well, she just left this morning, but from North Carolina who just lost her husband. And I just asked her yesterday, are you starting to get those little snippets of joy yet? Because they do start there, and they start coming in little snippets. Yeah, you you do start feeling like you're living again, and and you do feel joy again. It might be just a little snippet throughout the day, but the Lord does give you that throughout the day, and they do start to come more often, and and then you can speak their name without crying, but here I am 12 years later, and I can speak her name and cry. You never know what's coming. You don't know if you're gonna cry, you don't know if you're gonna laugh when you decide to share a story, and it can go either way, yeah. And and I just I don't think it's ever gonna be any different. I think I can be in my 90s and still talk about her and cry or laugh and not know what it's gonna be that day.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I agree with that because I've talked to so many people, some who have lost children over 20 years prior to our conversation. And you know, you can be having a you know a really great conversation with them, and you know, you can see the joy all over their face. Somewhere in that conversation, something triggers the tears and takes them right back to to feel in those acute, you know, that acute pain. But it those are really the pain though.

Speaker:

It can be tears with joy, but the problem is it makes people uncomfortable because then they're they feel like they should have never said, Oh, I should have never mentioned her name. And and and that's silly because it's not like you're ever gonna forget that your child, you know, you're never gonna forget your child. And so I think that people that don't understand the pain of loss don't know that that it's okay to say their name because just because there's tears, it's still okay to the tears are not always bad and they don't always mean sorrow. It's a funny thing because you can be crying and feel the joy, but you feel the sadness at the same time. I don't know how emotions that other people feel. I don't remember feeling those particular emotions before our loss.

Speaker 3:

I'm so glad that you touched on that, Linda. Excuse me. Because I think a lot of people do struggle with whether or not to say our child's name. Because multitude of reasons. I think primarily, like you said, it's because they're afraid that if we say, if they say our child's name, we're gonna suddenly get really sad and we might start crying, and it makes us hurt all over again. And nothing, for the most part, I think for most people, nothing could be further from the truth. We love hearing our children's name, especially when somebody else uses it, right? Because it means that they've they haven't forgotten. And one of our greatest fears as a parent is that people will forget our child. I mean, we certainly won't. We certainly won't forget that they died, so it's not like you're reminding us that our child died. It that's not something you forget. So take the risk, you know, ask about their child, use their name, you know, ask them about a good memory.

Speaker:

And realize that these are the only memories that we get. We don't get to talk about their future anymore.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker:

We don't get any more memories, so all we have is the past, and we have to be able to talk about that.

Speaker 3:

Sure.

Speaker:

That's all we have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and and know that we're good with doing that. You know, we really do want to do that, but you know, I don't know about you, but you know, here we are 10 years later in our grief journey. And, you know, while the majority of people that we're really close to uh know that it's perfectly fine to talk about Ryan, and we often do, often do. But some people you can tell they they're not gonna bring up Ryan's name and they're not gonna ask us about what happened or about his life or anything. And for a long time I struggled with that. Kathy and I both struggled with that because it was like we felt like people didn't care.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

But we have learned that that's not the case for you know for most people. It's just that they're uncomfortable and they don't know what to do. Yeah.

Speaker:

So you can't if you don't, if you haven't lived it, you don't know. There's no possible way for them to understand. I always said it was trying to describe chocolate to somebody who had never tasted it. How can you describe what chocolate if you're a chocolate lover like me? How can you describe chocolate to somebody who has never tasted it? You can't. You there's not a way to get them to understand. You can't describe the feelings. You cannot. Just in the same as like I cannot understand my male lady who has lost not one child, but two. I can't imagine that. I can't.

Speaker 3:

No, and you know, the truth of the matter is we I mean, when you stop and think about it, we wouldn't want anybody else to understand what we've experienced. Because it means they would had to have experienced it too. And you don't want that for anybody else.

Speaker:

No, the club that you don't want to belong to and you don't want any new members.

Speaker 3:

No, absolutely. Well, here you are twelve years later, almost thirteen. What does it look like today for you on your grief journey as opposed to some of what we've talked about that it was like 11, 12 years ago?

Speaker:

Well, 12 years ago I had hopes and dreams of what my future would look like. So when we're grieving, you don't just grieve the loss of your child, you grieve the loss of what you thought your future looked like. You grieve future grandchildren, you grieve what you thought would be cousin parties at grandma and grandpa's house, you grieve so many things that you grieve along with the loss of your child. I mean I I digressed and forgot your question.

Speaker 3:

No, that's okay because I think that's important because a lot of people who haven't been there don't understand sometimes we the term gets thrown around future grief. And that's what Linda's been talking about is you know, we we also grieve not just what we've lost and who we've lost, but we grieve what could have been. You know, when some when a friend of our child gets married, you know, we think about our child and what could have been. Uh when they're having children, we think about what that could have been like for our child. And and the list goes on and on and on. You know, and and so those are things that you have to deal with as well that nobody told you about, and uh it doesn't come in uh with the an instruction manual that we didn't get when you know when we became parents.

Speaker:

And with our new our new grandbaby coming, she she is a little girl, and our daughter is gonna name her Jocelyn. And it's gonna be precious and it's it's gonna be sweet, but I actually don't even know. I'm happy that she's naming her that. I that fills my heart with joy. But at the same time, I do know it's there's gonna be some pangs of of you know just not that her name is Jocelyn, but that her name is Jocelyn, and Jocelyn's not here to know that she has a little namesake.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker:

And yeah.

Speaker 3:

Oh well, well, you're gonna have to keep me updated on this because I know that this is you're getting ready to enter into a very sweet season, and I think it is incredibly sweet that she's gonna name her daughter Jocelyn. Yeah, and so you will you'll never cease to hear the name Jocelyn.

Speaker:

Nope, and I love that. I do love that. It'll yeah.

Speaker 3:

What a great way to honor her.

Speaker:

That's what I thought. Yep. Yeah, and I love that name. Out of all my kids' names, that was my favorite name. I love the name Jocelyn. I think it's so beautiful. I don't even know where I heard it. It's it, you know, 34 years ago. It was not, I guess she's 33, but 33 years ago, it was not a not a popular name. So yeah.

Speaker 3:

I love it. It is it is a beautiful name. Well, Linda, thank you so much for for giving us a glimpse into your life and your grief journey. Thank you for being so honest and transparent and just just sharing the reality of what a grieving parent goes through, but also the reality of of life as it as we begin to live again and and can experience the kind of life that that that God intends for us to live, filled with hope and joy and peace and and and wholeness again. So thank you for doing that.

Speaker:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I do want to, I'm gonna put you down for five seconds here. Grace, I want to grab a piece of artwork that she that she made that I do want to leave you with. I thought I lost it. I had a whole stack of these and and I couldn't find it for a second. Let's see if I can can you see that weird.

Speaker 3:

No will.

Speaker:

It's a tree. She she was an artist. Let's see. Uh she was an artist, and this is a tree that is going. So this is the Bible right here, and the tree's roots are going through the Bible. And the verse on it is Psalms 1.3. Psalm 1.3, he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water. Her her handwriting is not the greatest, but that bringeth forth his fruit in his season, his leaf shall not wither, and in whatsoever he doeth, he prosper. So, this particular piece of artwork, this is on the back of her funeral service, her funeral program.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker:

Um, but the reason I chose this particular is she had a lot of finished artwork and she even had a lot of these that were finished, but this one is not finished. This one, the coloring is through the trunk, through the roots. She didn't get to, she was, she gilded the Bible in in some of her other artwork. And then the leaves and the branches and the leaves, she, you know, she had them all painted out. But this one is just the trunk that is colored and a few of the a few of the leaves. And so the reason I chose this particular artwork for her program is because her story, oh goodness, my cat. Her story, even though she has been gone for 12 years, is not finished. The Lord will finish this painting. The Lord will finish the work that he started through her, even though she is not here. And and I love that. I love I love that so much. This painting will be completed and at the the day of Jesus Christ when he comes for the rest of us.

Speaker 3:

That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And for our listeners, if if Linda's conversation, her story today has has impacted your life, if uh if it has offered you some encouragement and hope, then we are we are so thankful for that. And if you would like to leave a comment, there is a link on uh Linda's episode description. You can click on that. And also you can go to Apple Podcast and leave a comment or leave a review. But we are very thankful again that Linda joined us today and shared her story. Thank you so much, Linda.

Speaker:

Thank you for having me, Greg. It was very nice to meet you, and it was wonderful visiting with you. And I appreciate the opportunity to share what I can about Jocelyn  

Speaker 3:

I appreciate that. Well, the the honor has been all mine. G

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Greg Buffkin

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